A Special Conversation: Fumita Ueda and Tetsuya Mizuguchi, Part 4 (Final)

Finally, our journey together is at an end. With part 4 (links for parts 1, 2, and 3 are here, in case you need to catch up), the final installment, this special conversation between Fumita Ueda (Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, The Last Guardian) and Tetsuya Mizuguchi (Rez, Lumines, Space Channel 5, Child of Eden) is complete. We sincerely hope you enjoyed it, and that it gave you some things to mull over. At the very least, we hope it was interesting. Look forward to the Ico and Shadow of the Colossus collection coming out September 27th for PS3 (for those of you who missed it on the original PS2, shame on you), as well as Child of Eden coming out for PlayStation Move on the same day. Here's hoping that both Mizuguchi and Ueda have many long and prosperous years as game designers ahead of them.

“What was established with 'Genki Rockets' is continuing on in 'Child of Eden'.” 

~Tetsuya Mizuguchi

Ueda: When I tried playing Child of Eden recently, I really thought it was similar to what I've tried to do with my games, and my way of making them. Trying to make the game interface as simple and unobtrusive as possible, and making something that not only appeals to normal gamers, but broadens the audience to appeal to lots of different people, for example. On top of that, the balance you have between gameplay and visuals is amazingly good. It's not just interactive art, it's a very high-quality, complete game. I was once again impressed with the fact that more than being just an artist, you are a true game designer.

Mizuguchi: Thank you. I'm very flattered and honored that you think that.

Ueda: Did you personally make both the world view, the concept for the world in Child of Eden, and the plot for the game as well?

Mizuguchi: Yes, I made both the basis for the world view and the plot by myself, and put them down in writing. Then, as a producer, I had to sync the world view and the story with the actions of the music provided by Genki Rockets (ed. note: the music group responsible for most of the music in Lumines as well as Child of Eden). Of course, there were some things that weren't inspired by the music, but in general, I think I made the world and the story of Child of Eden with Genki Rocket's music in mind, so it fit together perfectly later.

Ueda: With something like Child of Eden, which is basically a shooting game with sound and images, there is of course a need for meaning, but not necessarily a huge necessity for an actual story. You must really like the story, if you were that particular about it, huh?

Mizuguchi: Heh, yeah I guess I was pretty particular about it, about all of Child of Eden actually. After all, when I made Rez 10 years ago, there were things that I wanted to express, to communicate, but due to various restrictions, specifications, and limitations, I couldn't. 10 years have passed since then, and I've realized that what I can do, regardless of anything else, is move people. I can stimulate their emotions, by making a game that connects them to music and conveys a little bit of a message while they're playing. It was something I tried to do in both Rez and in Space Channel 5, and I think I've finally learned how to do it. I feel that Child of Eden is continuing off of the things I learned and tried in those earlier games.

“I want young creators to have high aims.” ~Tetsuya Mizuguchi

Ueda: Mizuguchi-san, I think that game designers who can make games that appeal to everyone, not just game fans, are very few. In fact, you might be the only designer who accomplishes it at the level you do, so I really want you to continue making games with the same high level of motivation you've shown in all the work you've done so far.

Mizuguchi: Thank you very much. Personally, Ueda-san, I hope that you will surpass Studio Ghibli's Hayao Miyazaki; become a creator that gives dreams and touches people all over the world. I want you to become the best. I think that the works of art you make have the potential to change how games are viewed as entertainment.

Ueda: Oh....wow....I'm not sure if I deserve that, but thank you. It is true that the anime movies Miyazaki-san makes, while still being entertaining, also receive critical praise and are valued as examples of fine films. I do think it would be wonderful if games could achieve that sort of existence too, and be valued in the same way.

Mizuguchi: If we, the Japanese game industry, can find new ways of expressing and showing our culture, I'm sure our audience will spread, and gaming will become more accepted. I want that to happen, for our sake as well as for the future of gaming. So that happens, I especially hope that young creators, both existing now and coming soon, will have high aims and ambitions. Especially now, with the level of technology we have, there are really very few obstacles standing in the way of true expression anymore. In addition, when people around the world become more attentive of each other, we will be linked together more than ever before. Only if we have imagination, though, can we make this amazing world materialize.

Ueda: I agree, and I'm sure it will happen. For game designers, being able to use technology well is important, of course, but I feel that this generation is one that needs imagination more than anything else..... Speaking of imagination, Mizuguchi-san, you usually make 'arcade style' games, and I make games more for consoles, or 'consumer style' games, but I want to see some new people appear that can start making different types of games entirely, ones we can't even think of at this point. I think that will be interesting to see, if it happens.

Mizuguchi: Recently, with social gaming and such, many creators are making games and new forms of entertainment that tie people together, that have them form bonds over networks. I think that if there will be an entirely new type of game, it will happen in this sort of environment. I think now may be the chance for a whole new way of game development to be born, and I look forward to it.

A Special Conversation: Fumita Ueda and Tetsuya Mizuguchi, Part 3

Continuing on from parts 1 and 2, part 3 of the conversation between two of Japan's most creative game designers (Ueda - Ico, Shadow of the Colossus and Mizuguchi - Child of Eden, Rez, Lumines) focuses on how they go about creating the gameplay mechanics of their games. Enjoy, and look forward to part 4 coming soon!

“A game is not just a series of beautiful images.” 

~Fumita Ueda

Mizuguchi: Ueda-san, how do you make the core gameplay part of your games? For example, in my case with 'Child of Eden', when we made the trial build, I really suppressed the visuals as much as possible so I could focus more on how the music changed, and how to present that change visually. That was the most important gameplay aspect to me, so I really tried hard to make those scenes. Temporarily dampening the graphical intensity in that build allowed me to create more feeling and emotion.

Ueda: So the graphics in the test build were completely different than the finished version, then?

Mizuguchi: Yep, it was the absolute minimum, bare-bones version, visually. It was so simple, actually, that I had to graphically supplement it in my head while I was playing it, to keep myself entertained (laughs).

Ueda: Heh, I see. So, not the visuals, but how I start making the actual core gameplay mechanic, huh?...... How on earth do I make it?! (laughs) …. I think I probably start making the game mechanic core at the same time as the visuals. If I just wanted to make something composed of beautiful images, I'd be better off making a movie. Since I make games, not movies, I usually choose one of my drawings to become the focus, the inspiration, for the gameplay. What sort of game structure and mechanics do I need to make in order to re-create the feeling in this image? How do I get the players to experience it without them feeling like they are being forced to? In 'Ico', for example, I started with the image of a person moving while pulling a girl by the hand, and 'Shadow of the Colossus' came from a picture of someone climbing up these giant creatures that were like living art pieces.

Mizuguchi: So, you made 'Shadow of the Colossus' from a scene, an idea, of riding on top of one of the Colossi?

Ueda: Yes, that's the very first thing we experimented with. Even though we called them 'colossi', at that point they were just cylindrical shapes and groups of bare polygons. We stuck the player character, the Wanderer, on top of them, and after verifying that the actions of both the Wanderer and the 'colossus' came off naturally, and the build was stable, we then broadened the design and look of the individual colossi. That's pretty much how the process of making the whole game went, continuing on one by one. With 'Child of Eden', did you derive the interactive portion of the gameplay from a visual piece of art as well?

Mizuguchi: No, the visuals for 'Child of Eden' were used solely to develop the world and how it looked. While the art team were working on the visual aspects, a separate team of staff members were making the game framework, the interface and such, parallel to them. We would figure out how we should proceed with development by actually trying to make something and play it. We just kept on fine-tuning it.

Ueda: Something as unique as 'Child of Eden' seems like it would be difficult to fine-tune all the way down to the minute details. It just seems like it would be difficult to explain exactly what you wanted in either words or pictures at that precise a level, somehow.

Mizuguchi: It was, we really needed a lot of patience and perseverance in the end. We were making small, minute tweakings of the game interface and controls until just before it went to press.

A Special Conversation: Fumita Ueda and Tetsuya Mizuguchi, Part 2

Continuing on from Part 1, the two master game developers, Ueda (Ico, Shadow of the Colossus) and Mizuguchi (Lumines, Rez, Child of Eden) move their discussion onto how they approach the difficult task of making their games. Let's listen in as they explain their creative process, shall we?

“I start with a brief image or picture, and then it spreads from there.” ~Fumita Ueda

Mizuguchi: Do you maybe feel more... full of life than when we met 10 years ago? Both of us, the width of what we're able to express in our games, and the types of messages we can convey... I think the creative work in game development has gradually become very fun and interesting. Of course, the actual work involved, the non-creative part, is still very difficult...

Ueda: Well, when we met, I think both 'Ico' and 'Rez' had a ….unique.... existence, even in the game industry, so.... I was always, always asked “Is this really a game?” back then, which I think might have effected my general outlook.

Mizuguchi: Ugh, yes. I had lots of people telling me “This king of thing isn't a game!” at that time. But right as that was happening, it [Rez] became popular on the internet. A lot of people started to say “This is a new type of game”, and they spread that impression to others. Also at that time, Youtube and other sites like it started, and everyone was able to convey lots of information using those new media outlets. The turn-around in opinion, that 'change in the wind' if you will, really made me want to try more and more new things. Since then, I've gradually become more capable in my job. Recently I've been getting really excited too, thinking things like “This 'making games' gig has really become interesting!”

Ueda: Recently, development tools and game engines, and people literate in making and using them, have been evolving and increasing. It's really convenient! Up until this point, we [Team Ico] had to first make the development tools, and then see what we could make creatively in the confines of the game engine's capability. Now, with how advanced and numerous development tools have become, we can focus more on the creative aspect of game design than ever before, without worrying about being restricted by the current technology. By the way, Mizuguchi-san, when you want to convey your idea, your image, of a new game to your staff, what do you do? For example, in 'Child of Eden' you have all these scenes with different colors and motifs, all represented abstractly, in quick succession. I'm interested in how you managed to convey all of that to your staff.

Mizuguchi: Well, when I first started development on 'Child of Eden', I sat down and wrote about 30 pages on the images I had floating around in my head. I then distributed that, in either English or Japanese, to every single member of my staff. I then told my 'Image Out' team I wanted them to help me visualize the game, based on what I had written. It ended up taking a lot of time; we were tweaking visual elements until the very end of development, but that's probably because I wanted the staff to use their imaginations to the fullest, so I actually wasn't that explicit about any details in my original document. In fact, I reduced the amount of information I provided, so that my staff could read between the lines and create something that exceeded my original vision. Despite that, though, I kept throwing out directions, like “let's try making it this way” or “let's try changing this” or “I want you to do that more like this”.... various things. That work requires a lot of patience and perseverance on all our parts to continue, it can go on forever.

Ueda: Did you use static images during the visualization process?

Mizuguchi: Yes, illustrations. One staff member drew over 1300 of them by himself.

Ueda: Whoa, in color?

Mizuguchi: Yeah, in color. He's still very young; he told me that when he was in high school, he played 'Rez' and decided that no matter what, he wanted to work with me. At first he had some difficulties, but he's not the type of person to give up easily. He just kept drawing, and eventually he not only put out visuals that exceeded my original image, he got so fast that he was able to make that many. For my staff, who works so hard and does things like that, I try very hard to stimulate their imaginations. Occasionally, we put out too many details on one thing, and then we expand on that image too much, so we have to tighten it up and shrink it down a little bit. That's what I've been doing with my team for the last 2 ½ years, basically. It's kind of like we made the game by untangling some sort of giant 'image puzzle' or something. Ueda-san, how do you go about creating your games?

Ueda: I always start out by drawing a picture. Then, I draw more pictures, continuing off that first one, until I have various scenes. Once I get a scenario that I like, and decide to make the game according to that series of images, I cut those specific images out and make a sort of 'trailer' picture for my staff, telling them “let's go with this kind of vibe”.

Mizuguchi: Do you have any hurdles when making the game meet the same feeling and meaning as the original picture you wanted to aim for?

Ueda: Sometimes, yes. I feel that rather than planning out every detail and scenario in the beginning, it's smoother to first create a picture representing what I want to express, and then letting the images swell from there, finally filling out and being reflected in the final game. It's also easier to add things later on this way, as I'll occasionally say “Hey, I want to draw this sort of scene or scenario” after we've already started production. My image isn't static, it changes and moves. I feel how I make games and how Mizuguchi-san makes games is actually pretty close. I mean, except for my initial drawings, which are pretty detailed, I don't give too much information out about how I want the game to go; my staff always manages to 'read between the lines' of my thoughts.

Mizuguchi: In game production, it's really difficult to be involved in all the various development stages at a level where you can give minute instructions for everything. Because of that, I think the best way to direct or produce is to gather a group of people who have the same vision for the game, the same way of thinking. For example, a group of 30 people, if they all have the same direction in their thinking, they can complete the game without blurring the initial vision.... whether that game will be a hit or not is another matter, though. Regardless, I think one of the most essential aspects of making a game is making a 'team'. Of course, my staff have their own respective and distinct personalities, but we're able to keep the big picture in focus, keep the initial vision intact, and then fine-tune it until the game is complete. I think this is really the core of game development.

A Special Conversation: Fumita Ueda and Tetsuya Mizuguchi, Part 1

Who are Fumita Ueda and Tetsuya Mizuguchi, and why should you care that they are talking to each other? Some of you might already know, but for those who don't, Fumita Ueda is the man behind 'Ico' and 'Shadow of the Colossus', two games hailed by both fans and critics alike as being two of the best examples on the pro-side of the 'Games as Art' debate; the third game in the series, 'The Last Guardian', is already being anticipated to be of equal quality. Tetsuya Mizuguchi made another game that could also be considered in that category: Rez, the amazing, visual-rhythmic shooting game originally released for the PS2 and later ported to the Xbox 360 in an HD re-release. His upcoming game, 'Child of Eden', for the Xbox Kinect and the PlayStation Move, looks to be just as ground-breakingly spectacular.  

So what do two of the most innovative and artistic creators in the Japanese game industry talk about with each other? Recently, these two men sat down for Famitsu magazine and had a conversation about their careers, their vision for games, and what they hope to accomplish with their upcoming releases. As a special treat, we will be translating the entire interview and putting it up in sections over the next couple of weeks. We hope you enjoy it.

“Inside me, I felt that Ueda-san was a 'kindred spirit'.”

~Mizuguchi Tetsuya

Ueda: I first met Mizuguchi-san in November of 2001, at a completion party for Ico, I think.

Mizuguchi: Yeah. I think that's right. I'm pretty sure it was right after Rez got released (Editor's note: Rez was also released in November of 2001).

Ueda: I feel strongly that they didn't want Ico to be labeled as not a 'real game' at that time, so it was released at the same time as Rez, another title with original game design.

Mizuguchi: I feel like Ueda-san and I are in sync on all the important points. I think that we have the same timing, and approach making games in the same way. When I see Ueda-san being active, it always makes me think 'I have to work hard, too!'.

Ueda: I think so as well. Also, we were both awarded a prize at the 2002 GDCA (Game Developer's Conference).

Mizuguchi: After that, at the Art Event in Spain too, we were both invited to go as representatives for Game Designers, right?

Ueda: Yep. I'm pretty sure that was after 'Shadow of the Colossus' was released.

Mizuguchi: We don't meet that often in Japan. We always see each other at foreign events we are both invited to, don't we?

Ueda: Speaking of, didn't I run into you at the Spanish airport too?

Mizuguchi: Ah! You're right, we did! (laughs). It's almost like some strange twist of fate or something, that Ueda-san and I both seem to feel something similar, and make games that both seem to head in the same direction, or at least we think so when we look at each other's titles.

Ueda: I agree. Mizuguchi-san's games are enjoyed even by people who don't usually play games, and have a simple design, but are still the perfect example of what a video game really is, or should be at least. His latest work, 'Child of Eden', is made like that too, and I think his technical skill is broadening. I'd like to believe that our attitude about making these kinds of games is similar.

Mizuguchi: It probably is. But I think Ueda-san's work comes from this... deep view of the world that he has. The stories that he makes, that flow from that view, have this overwhelming power. He's taking these things called 'games', using the principals they are based on, and widening their possibilities, making them more artistic. I feel that his games are somehow different from all the games that have come before: they have a message and a strong new theme. The fact that he is continuing to make these works of art is amazing. Someone who is able, has the power, to take the world they see inside themselves and accurately express that visually to others... I think it's very unique, a rare person. Especially when you are talking about a fantasy world, since you have to build the world up from scratch; it's a completely different dimension from the real world we inhabit. You probably need an awful lot of energy to do it.

Ueda: Well, it does certainly require a huge amount of effort and work to make something that doesn't exist in the real world convincing and believable when people see it.

Mizuguchi: The control you take, thoroughly going down to even the little details, is amazing.

Ueda: Thank you very much. Of course, it's not just me, my team also works incredibly hard.

Mizuguchi: But that's why it's so amazing! It's really difficult to unify a team like that, have them all be so focused and together.

Ueda: Well, I don't really think it's just me, but as far as the view of the world, the level design, and the functionality of the game as a whole go, I think in order to pursue those things a layer, a texture, of both functionality and meaning is needed in the game. That's what I hope for, what I want us to do thoroughly.

Part two will be coming soon. Look forward to it!

Submitted by: Sherrie Blackwell